The Use Case by RecruitingDaily
RecruitingDaily discusses with guests how practitioners make the business case or the use case for purchasing their technology. Each episode is designed to inspire new ways and ideas to make your business better.
The Use Case by RecruitingDaily
Storytelling About hackajob With Mark Chaffey
Ever wondered how tech recruitment could be transformed for the better? Get ready to have your questions answered as Mark Chaffey, the co-founder and CEO of hackajob, pulls back the curtain on their full stack talent solution. Imagine the ease of a reverse marketplace approach to tech recruitment, providing everything from employer branding to DE&I solutions, and even talent assessments. hackajob's three-tiered screening process, consisting of technical screening, job fit screen, and culture assessment, simplifies finding, engaging, and hiring top-notch technical talent.
Discover how hackajob integrates with applicant tracking systems and the role of DevLab in employer branding. With the software industry caught in a competitive whirlwind, learn about hackajob's unique position in the market and how it outshines staffing agencies, LinkedIn, and other direct sourcing solutions. If you're intrigued by the prospect of building a learning platform for engineers, you'll appreciate how hackajob has made strides in this area, providing an effective solution for companies to stay ahead.
Finally, we'll delve into hackajob's approach to providing accurate and respectful feedback for unsuccessful candidates. Listen to a captivating customer story that underscores hackajob's pivotal role in supporting a large US business with their tech hiring. We'll also explore the specifics of hackajob's reverse marketplace approach, the talent pool it attracts, and future integrations with Workday and Success Factors. So, sit back, relax, and let us show you the future of tech recruitment with hackajob.
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Welcome to Recruiting Daily's Use Case Podcast, a show dedicated to the storytelling that happens or should happen when practitioners purchase technology. Each episode is designed to inspire new ways and ideas to make your business better as we speak with the brightest minds in recruitment and HR tech. That's what we do. Here's your host, William Tincup.
Speaker 2:This is William Tincup and you are listening to the Use Case Podcast. Today we have Mark on from Hackajob and we'll be learning about the business case or use case that prospects and customers make for the purchase of Hackajob. So what will we learn about Hackajob? Mark, would you do us a favor and introduce both yourself and Hackajob?
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely, and thank you so much for having me on the show, william. So my name is Mark, I'm one of the co-founders and the CEO at Hackajob and I've spent the last eight years of my life now obsessing over the problem of how the company's hire technical talent at scale. So a brief introduction to Hackajob Every business in the world is now a technology company. Technology has evolved from a standalone industry, which obviously it still is, to now a function within every industry. It doesn't matter if you're in defense and space, retail, e-commerce. You're going to need to build technology teams, and that means that the demand for technical talent is far outweighing the supply, even with all of the layoffs of the last 12 to 18 months. Companies find it incredibly challenging to find, engage and hire technical talent, and that's where Hackajob comes in.
Speaker 3:We have designed a full stack talent solution that has several different products to improve every part of the hiring process. It starts with a two-sided marketplace where we technically screen every candidate on the way in using technology that we fill, and if the candidate passes that screening process, they are visible in our marketplace for a period of four weeks and at that point we flip the model on its head. So, rather than the candidate applying to the job, the company actually applies to the engineer, and this creates a really magical candidate experience, because candidates only get pitched by companies that meet their salary expectation. These are status, location preferences, tech stack, etc. Which means companies receive an 85% response rate to engineers that they message through the Hackajob marketplace so far more effective use of internal recruiter's time. And then we layer the marketplace with an employer brand solution, a DE&I solution and a talent assessments product that ends up improving every part of the hiring final for organizations. And that is a brief intro to myself and Hackajob.
Speaker 2:I love it. I love it. So the screening process, let's start with that, as your screening talent are you skills testing and things like that. Let's take us into the screen without revealing any of the secret sauce. Right, but what are you doing when you screen technical?
Speaker 3:talent? Yeah, absolutely. There's three different levels of screening that a user will go through. The first is technical screening. So we have built a cloud-based programming environment that enables us to assess a candidate's proficiency in any programming language, tool, framework, architecture, type, etc. And that's all automated using the technology that we've built. A candidate can also link their open source projects on places like GitHub and Bitbucket and again we analyze that all automatically using the technology we've built, and the idea behind that part of the process is to try and remove the noise from a technical person's CV.
Speaker 3:I don't know how many engineering CVs you've reviewed over your time, william, but typically they are stuffed full of a thousand different keywords of every single technology that a candidate has touched in their career, whereas really what the hiring manager cares about is what are you good at and what do you want to do, and that's what we really try and get to through the technical part of the screening process.
Speaker 3:The second part, we call our job fit screen, and this is really just about capturing structured data around what a candidate is looking for. So as they go through this process, we'll capture their salary expectations, visa status, seniority, tech stack, work location, preferences, etc. And that just means that, as I touched on earlier, the candidate experience is so superior to any other solution because they're only getting really relevant opportunities presented to them. And then the final one we're much earlier in exploring, but we're trying to identify. Can we work out the type of organization an engineer is likely to be more successful in than others? So this is a variation of some form of culture assessment. We're very early in exploring this right now, but trying to understand, as we think about the matching process between an engineer and a company. How can we prioritize the right type of companies for the engineer?
Speaker 2:To either the employers that you work with or the candidates. Do you see a shift towards projects as opposed to full-time employment? I don't want to guide the witness, but I'm just wondering what does the market want right now?
Speaker 3:It's a fascinating question because for so long there's been obviously many McKinsey reports etc Around the gig economy and and they're moving to freelance etc. We've always played in the permanent space, both here in the UK and in the US, and Continue to play in the permanent space, so we don't really do any freelance contract project work. We are primarily working with in-house recruiters that are responsible for scaling permanent tech teams. I do think there is still a demand for freelance talent. It's typically in a slightly different part of the organization. It's often more hiring manager led and there are other products out there that very much focus just on that one area. But from what we see, companies that are going through these big digital transformation programs want that talent in-house, full-time Working for that organization and there's a lot of demand for it.
Speaker 2:So how do companies, the employer side, how do they think of you? I hate software categories, by the way, and y'all are a blend of services in software, so I can see them using all kinds of different words to describe you. All good words, mark, but where do they towards the budget come from?
Speaker 3:Yeah, totally, and I definitely hear you in the early days. I'd be like for somewhere between the staffing agency and a job board, but really either of those two things. So we're a direct sourcing platform. The company generally finds the budget where they are trying to reduce staffing agency spend. So our business model is an annual subscription that ends up making the cost per hire around three to four thousand pounds, slightly more USD, and that is typically about 75 percent reduction in what they are spending on staffing agencies. So if I'm a director of time acquisition, one of my top three KPIs I'm going to be measured on is my direct fill rate. And and platforms at LinkedIn and indeed have been wonderful for increasing my direct fill rate in non-tech roles, but actually whether typically the highest use of staffing agency Usage is still within technology. So we will then be partnering both of the director of time acquisition and often the CTO to reduce that staffing agency spend. Move it to a subscription platform like ours where the cost per hire significantly cheaper.
Speaker 2:Are you working with more, as you, as you roll this out, are you working with more recruiters? Are you working more directly with hiring managers?
Speaker 3:Great question. So typically it's the internal recruitment function that are using it. So you know, most organizations that we work with will probably have a dedicated technical recruitment function and it's typically those people that are using the products and why they love the product so much is. Our Platform enables them to spend more time doing what they're great at, which is interviewing candidates, getting candidates through the recruitment process, and less time just aimlessly sending out hundreds and hundreds of messages. Interestingly enough, I was in just moved to New York and I was in New York last week and I was with one of our big US customers and they're seeing a lot of success by giving hiring managers our platform and the logic there is that the engagement rate is so high from the candidates. It's effectively enables that team to just have the hiring managers logging in, baby in and booking in effectively the first Technical interview straight away. So there is some use cases for hiring managers, but predominantly it's internal talent people.
Speaker 2:People know the kind of traditional hiring process source talent and you market to the talent. Then you somehow get them to apply to a job. They get into a TS, okay, you go to offer letter and then an inverse starts. Where do you interact with people's, really, their technology stacks, especially their TA or recruiting technology stack, because the application is through you, I'm assuming, the offer letter is through you. But where does that data? Where does that data need to, or what your employer is telling you? That data needs to also reside.
Speaker 3:Yeah, great question. So we're at the start of the journey. So companies will be using us for employer branding and attraction and then also for direct sourcing. So a typical use case is a company will, or an internal recruiter will, log into a hacker job to do their sourcing of talent. They will send interview requests to candidates that they like to look of.
Speaker 3:Once a candidate has accepted their request, at that point we upload the candidate to the applicant tracking system, and it is a bi-directional integration. So any time a candidate is then updated in the applicant tracking system, they're also updated in hacker job. And that's really important for all of our machine learning models, because we don't just get the signal that a company wants to interview this candidate, we actually find out did the company hire that candidate, was the candidate unsuccessful or was the can or did the candidate withdraw? Which means our recommendations can get better and better over time. And I'll give you a sneak peek, exclusive William, because I actually wanted to share this on LinkedIn today, but our product team told me I had to wait one more week. We have integrations going live with workday and success factors on September the 1st. Oh, that's fantastic to get the best requests for applicant tracking systems, so we're very excited to get both of those live.
Speaker 2:No, that's fantastic. First of all, congratulations Not easy. Then, of course, you're going to be pulled into Oracle as well, because there's those are the big three, but you got two of them. You'll have two of them knocked out by September, which is really fascinating. The candidates what I love about you flipping the model and the company's trying to attract the candidates in a way that you want them to. Again, I like that, and I like that for technical talent in particular, and I like that you're testing and assessing. And again, not everybody gets accepted, not everybody's on the platform, which, again, I think is good. Is there any cross? I don't know, like I'm thinking about community GitHub or Stack Overflow, how they've created a tech community within that then interacts with each other regardless of jobs and even being hired. They give it to each other, advice, et cetera. Do you either have any of that now or do you see that as part of your future?
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. There's two elements of the business today where that happens. So one we've effectively created a media company alongside Hackajob called DevLab DevLab, powered by Hackajob, and this is often where our customers will be promoting their technical content. So there's a lot of blogs and podcasts and events and bits and pieces like this, which is amazing for our customers because it's a great employer branding channel for the more soft sell, get somebody really excited about the technology that you're working on inside an organization like CarMax or S&P Global. But then we also do physical, real world events with these people. So two weeks ago we hosted our annual conference where over 1000 engineers got together in person and attended two days of talks and presentations from various industry people, customers, et cetera. So there's a whole media business to the company which facilitates that community on the candidate side.
Speaker 3:And then, secondly, we're much earlier in this part of the journey, but the same technology that we use to assess candidates, we're also turning into a learning platform. So something that's really interesting about engineers is that technology moves so quickly. There's always a new programming language framework tool that they want to play around with, and what we've created is a structured, practical environment where they can play around with those technologies so they don't need to listen to a YouTube video or more classroom based learning. Instead, they can actually practically go away and play around with a language like Go that's rising in popularity, using the product and there's hope over time that we might even be able to make that peer to peer and facilitate peer to peer learning on the platform. Absolutely some stuff we're doing today and definitely ambitious to do more of that in the future. I love that.
Speaker 2:So are you bumping into anybody because the model is so unique, Are you? I'm going to the question is about displacement and I advise a lot of startups and I get this question pretty much every day and it's about competition and a lot of software. We all are mixed software and services, so it's a little bit different for y'all, but a lot of software firms they think that another software company they'll look around. If it's seek out, they'll think it's higher, easy, you know what I'm saying? Like they'll look at another software company. If it's greenhouse, they'll think it's a pixel bay like lever or something like that. They'll pick another kind of something that looks similar to them.
Speaker 2:And I always come back with kind of a similar answer. I'm like it's actually the status quo. It's people just doing stuff the same way that they've done it always and they just don't want to change. It's your biggest competitor. That's what you have to get over. And so what are you finding when you're talking to people and rerouting their minds to something different, to doing it differently than they've done it before? Are you finding that you got to pull them away from another something that's similar, or is it just we're going to take, as you said earlier, we're going to take money on your staffing budget. You don't necessarily need to think of us as a staffing firm, but that's where the budget is going to come from. Sorry, I interrupted.
Speaker 3:No, not at all. I think you've put it so well, and we did our series B fundraiser this year and competition came up a lot because it is a noisy space, and I wish I had your answer, to be honest, because I think it's slightly better than mine. But how I think about competition is three different ways. It's where is our customer spending money and we're taking money? Where are our users spending time and we're taking time, and what other products out there are trying to do those two things as well? So where we're taking budget, it's very clearly staffing agencies.
Speaker 3:We are seeing some use cases where, once we've reached a certain scale inside a company, that will actually take some budget from their LinkedIn agreement and give it to us, which is really interesting. Typically, that's an organization's where the percentage of tech hiring is a significant percent, so you think about IT consultancies as a good example. But, generally speaking, we're displacing staffing agencies from a budget perspective, from a time perspective. Where are users spending time before they buy a hacker job? It's LinkedIn. Internal recruiters live on LinkedIn and the frustration they have is that they have to send hundreds and hundreds of messages to get replies. A lot of the LinkedIn. Oh, go for it, sir.
Speaker 2:It's such a horrible waste of time because the tech talent. These is years ago, but I don't think it much has changed. A friend of mine who's an engineer, a software engineer, would say, hey, I have a. It's a pop-up profile, so when I'm actually frustrated with my job or looking for a job, I'll pop up my LinkedIn profile. I'll get a flood of email or email or messages or whatever, and then I'll roll it down. I won't cancel, I'll just make it inactive.
Speaker 2:I've dealt with enough technical talent to know they're bombarded. It's just insane. And I like LinkedIn, don't get me wrong. I've been a member for 20 years. So it's not that I hate LinkedIn. I just for this particular use case. I just don't think it's effective because it's from a spending perspective I think that's the key word is effective.
Speaker 3:I think you hit the nail on the head, and one of the other big challenges on linkedin is that it's not built for engineers, so so many of the profiles are bare bones and you don't get the information that you actually need. A lot of the people that would be really relevant for your roles don't even come back in your search results because linkedin doesn't know the technology stack they're working with it is. There's definitely a big opportunity to displace linkedin with vertical solutions and I'm with you, I'm a massive link to news. I use linkedin every single day. It's the time that is guaranteed to be open pretty much all day for me. I'm a big linkedin fan.
Speaker 3:But I think for the internal recruiters, no, just more effective channels, and I think we've built one of the most effective channels for them to find New talent. That's so displacing staffing agencies, typically from a budget perspective, linkedin typically from a time perspective. And then, yeah, the tools that we are competing against. If you think about I don't think they're similar, but they're solving the similar problem you mentioned. Seek out would absolutely be one of those products. I've got really good penetration in the us.
Speaker 3:I think seek out suffer from a similar problem that linkedin have, which is they do really rich search, so you get a far better search experience on seek out, but these candidates haven't opted in to seek out. You don't really know if they're looking for a job or not, so your engagement rate still gonna be relatively low Compared to what you can achieve on hacker job, and obviously you've got high easy in that space as well. There are obviously other direct sourcing tools out there, but I don't think there are many that are taking this kind of reverse marketplace approach that needs to. That eighty five percent response rate were able to provide for internal recruiters.
Speaker 2:Let's do a couple of things real quick. What are questions that prospect should ask you? The team, your sales team, your marketing team, anybody that's out there like which is a compliment, by the way. It's absolutely a compliment, because you're solving something very uniquely, but in that they might not have the buying questions, they might not have the literacy yet to ask you sophisticated questions. So what if you could draft those? Or maybe a magic wand? What would those questions be?
Speaker 3:And also I love the placas description of the fun of the emoji and put that everywhere now. So I think there's a couple different things that if I was a prospect looking at hacker job, I'd be wanting to understand what is. I want to understand the talent that ultimately, we're only as good as the candidates we have on our platform and therefore I want to understand what types of engineers and technical people it's not all software engineering. We do stuff in data devops, cloud security, etc. What's the seniority of those people, what's the location, those different bits and pieces. I definitely want to really deeply understand the talent Community, the talent make up and what that looks like, and we do actually offer customers a 30 day trial To figure that out, because ultimately, we only want companies to sign up that are good fit for us and they're gonna use us for the next five years. So that's definitely one thing that I want to work with them on, they should want to work with us on. I think the budget sign off process in this environment is got a lot more challenging for organizations and because we are a platypus, because we are a slightly unique proposition and we are an annual subscription model, building that business case together is very valuable. What we find when an internal recruitment function have to go and sell this internally to the finance team, the community more whatever, because it's not necessarily easy to place us, it can post some challenges there. So really getting us bought into the procurement process I think is key. I'm building that business case and I find one we've touched on.
Speaker 3:But if I was a Direct of time acquisition, I only buy tools integrated my tracking system and my other systems. I think there is such a plethora of technology out there right now. I'm actually when you speak to customers. One of the biggest problems isn't buying technology, it's enabling that team to actually use the technology that they bought. We spent a lot of time thinking about that and I see an iron organization. We bought some brilliant software products just nobody uses because I'm done a good job of naming them. I think that integration is a one great way to really maximize enablement because it makes the users job a lot more easy and remove any admin. So I think that three pillars I'd be looking at. I'd be looking at one Make sure there's a really strong talent fit we've got a 30 day trial to help customers figure that out to really understanding the business case and how we gonna generate and justify the r? Y and then free really done deep on integrations and workflows and making sure that this is going to be more effective for the internal crew.
Speaker 2:Okay. So when you get to show a job to someone for the first time, what's your favorite part? I say demo, that's not really the bit, but you get to show people behind the veil how you work, what you do, the outcomes, etc. What's your favorite part?
Speaker 3:Can I choose to? Is that okay? Yeah, so when I demo the product, can I still do the odd demo? What I like to do is I will get a prospect job, a live job that they posted on their career site and I'll add it to our platform. I'll do it in real time. I'll say this is the job.
Speaker 3:We're going to add it together now and we're going to show you in real time how many candidates are a match for this job. We're going to add in all the data your salary, your location, your visa, your tech stack, etc. And it will pull a list of 180 matches and I'm going to click on one of those matches blindly, not knowing what that candidate is Going to do it in real time with them and we'll review that profile together and I'll say what do you think of this candidate? And seven or eight times out of 10, they'll say yeah, I'd like to speak to that candidate. And I'll say if you hit this interview button here within 48 hours, 85% likelihood that candidate is replied and booked in a time to speak with you. Is there another product that you could do that with? Generally, the answer is no, and that is a great way to get someone hooked because you have shown them value very quickly. So that'd be the first part.
Speaker 3:The second part is our new module that we've just rolled out all around diversity, equity and inclusion, which is obviously such a hot topic in our space, and we collect opt-in data across ethnicity, gender, neurodiversity, disability, sexuality, veteran status and, if they need reasonable adjustments in the interview process we're about 80% of our users and then we're able to play back the customer's hiring funnel, broken down by those demographics, and we can see at what stage do they have a higher dropout rate of female engineers versus male engineers? And, what's more, every time a candidate drops out or declines the interview of a company, they have to give a reason why. So a company can start learning why black female engineers drop out at a higher rate than white male engineers, or why, at the face-to-face interview stage, there's a higher dropout. Is it because it's an all white male panel, for instance? And what we're finding from speaking to customers is they just do not have access to this data anywhere. So that is another very powerful part of the product that I always enjoy showing or discussing.
Speaker 2:Mark, dumb question. I'll learn, but do we get that data also for the employers? So we get it from candidates, like when they drop out but do? What I'm seeking for is bad hiring managers. That's what I'm looking for is how do I identify? Do we find out any of the data from their perspective as well about candidates?
Speaker 3:Yes, there's two kind of elements we do here. One is very descriptive, so each time a candidate is rejected through half the job you have to collect. We collect a structured reason why there's eight different reasons, and again that then feeds our machine learning matching. That means the recommendations can get better over time.
Speaker 2:Is that communicated to the candidate in some way? Is that not raw? But is it feedback shared with the candidate? I'm thinking about the candidate experience right now in particular, because they might tell you okay, they're just not up to date with what we need, they're just not quite there and we can't. Right now, we can't spend the time, money and energy in training them up. Dude, how does a candidate get that without? How do they get that feedback without being completely offended? Or do they get that feedback?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's one of the tricky things, right. You've always got to think about how do you manage comms and especially give you work with larger enterprise organizations. They're very selective on what comms we can do. They have to send a message every time they make a candidate unsuccessful, so they have to provide some input. That message could be generic, it could be specific, it's up to them. So we are empowering the users to take that decision. And it is also important for us because we want to get accurate unsuccessful data from the customer, because that's going to make our matching more accurate and better over time. So it is a balancing act to get that right.
Speaker 2:Brilliant, all right. Last thing, and it's your favorite or your most recent customer story, without naming the customer or the brand, but just something that happened. They use Hackajob and you're like, oh, that's cool, that's why we created the company?
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's a couple. So, like I said, I've just moved to the US and I'm very much enjoying living in New York and leaning in heavily to US culture and this isn't really going to be like the emotifan that you're looking for, but I think it speaks to me as a human. So I'm a big sports fan and so football, rugby, so football for me. Big man, united fan, your brothers from another mother.
Speaker 2:I've been following the United since 92.
Speaker 3:I love it Well, I'm actually named after Mark Hughes, so you will be familiar with him and my brother's, named after. Ryan Giggs. So, yeah, it runs deep in our family and the worst thing about the US is the fact that you guys call it soccer.
Speaker 2:Oh no, I don't know. It's football. You use your foot with the ball, that's why it's football. Don't get me wrong. I went to the University of Alabama for undergrad, so I love college football. But no, I've played soccer growing up, so I get it. But no, I've been following international football and United is my team, like I literally could have a tattoo. I've been old Trafford probably almost 100 times.
Speaker 3:I love it. I do still have two season tickets. So often anymore but next time next time we're in the UK we're going to old Trafford together.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah. All right, I interrupted you, I'm sorry, so you're getting into the.
Speaker 3:You're getting into sports, getting into sports, and my American sport of choice is basketball. We've got basketball, and so I was fortunate enough to be at Madison Square Garden for the New York Knicks Miami Heat Playoff game, the one that the Knicks won. And I'm telling this story because one of the major sponsors of the NBA, who shall not be named, I saw was sponsoring this event and I was like sponsoring the NBA? I was like, wow, that's cool. I never even heard of this company. It's a US business.
Speaker 3:And I was actually there with Brett, one of our guys, and I said, brett, how cool would it be if that company used Hackajob? This is amazing, I'm getting into basketball and Brett went away and obviously wanting to impress, and a couple of weeks later I saw them pop up in our sales force. I was like, oh, they're now an opportunity and they just signed up with us two weeks ago, which is our largest US customer so far in terms of employees side, our 50,000 person organization, and we're supporting them all across the US with their tech hiring. So that was definitely a very sweet moment recently.
Speaker 2:I was this close a couple of years back to writing a book with an Argentinian called Finding Messy, and the bit was is looking through a sports, basically a football club we could use Barcelona if we wanted, or United and looking at HR. The entire spectrum of HR, recruiting and HR is all done in a football club. So there's sourcing, there's training, there's compensation, like all the stuff that we have in our brains around, all the TA stuff, but also, once they become employees, all the HR stuff. That's all done in a football club. It might not be done well, but at Liverpool and the city, but it's. It's one of those deals that you can actually look at town, acquisition and HR through the football lens and see fascinating things. So I'm glad that we're already together or we're already connected.
Speaker 3:Totally, william. If you ever want to write that book, you've got a co offering me I would. I would love to study HR and town acquisition and unfortunately are not so. Friends over at the Plumman City have done a much better job than us in talent acquisition over the last five years. So in your what?
Speaker 2:But that's good because it motivates us and we've done we've had a. We've had a. I love our manager. A lepsiway love our manager. I think we finally found somebody, after Sir Alex, to step in and actually really command a team. I'm excited, absolutely.
Speaker 3:I absolutely agree. Yeah, it's going to be definitely going to be an exciting season and I think that he's bringing back that club first culture. No player is bigger than the club and I think that you've made some big, brave decisions which you've got to commend him for. So, yeah, I'm very excited for the season ahead.
Speaker 2:And again, that's what you do in HR. What's what's fascinating about that is you have to make brave decisions about talent. Again, it's talent. Anyhow, we could have an entire podcast about United, but we're not going to. There's some great ones out there Anyhow. Mark, thank you so much. I know how busy you are. Thank you for carving out time for us.
Speaker 3:William, this has been a pleasure and definitely one of the more enjoyable podcasts I have done. So thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and thanks for everyone listening Until next time, thanks.
Speaker 1:You've been listening to Recruiting Daly's use case podcast. Be sure to subscribe on your favorite platform and hit us up at recruiting dailycom.
